Episode 35 – Part 1 – Fire Safety & Building Regulations: External Fire Safety with Jay Ridlings from TFT Consultants

The following transcript is autogenerated so may contain errors.

Matt Nally: On this week’s episode, we’re looking at Fire safety and we’ve got Jay Ridings from TFT Consultants. So yeah, thank you for coming on. Do you want to yeah, give us a brief introduction. 

Jay Ridings: Thank you, Matt. Yeah. Jay Ridings from TFT Consultants. I’m a chartered building surveyor senior director for TFT based in Bristol.

I started life in London for various firms before making my way west. TFT for about 10 years. I lead the technical due diligence service line which essentially means building surveys of existing assets. And yeah very busy with it. Very interesting time. And we’ll talk about, one, one key elements of that shortly.

Matt Nally: Yeah. I think I know what you’re going to suggest that is it’s I suppose the context to this episode is when I approached you to discuss this, we were more just looking at, Grenfell has happened maybe what, seven years ago now, and. It’s been in and out the news, it’s kept itself near the surface, but drops away every so often.

And it was, an interesting idea to look at where we are with fire safety and buildings. Have we moved on? Where do we sit relative to that? And for context is we’re recording this week two or three days after the tower plot fire in Dagenham. So this obviously will be slightly delayed going out from them, but that’s, Yeah, it’s just back in the news.

I suppose for our different topics, we’re going to look at external fire safety, then internal fire safety, and then what the future looks like in terms of fire safety options. But for topic one, let’s focus on the external fire safety side. And I don’t know where it’s best to start with this.

Actually, obviously we’ve just had the the diagonal fire, as I mentioned, the context before that being the Grenfell fire. And both of those linked to the cladding. Is cladding our biggest external issue at the moment in buildings? 

Jay Ridings: Yeah, absolutely. It’s interlinked lots of, this relates to the building industry in general.

Points about regulation, about responsibility, about workmanship the quality of buildings that we produce, the quality of construction, the processes surrounding that and and checking the quality of construction. So it’s quite a, it’s a complex area. But. You can just tell from the media coverage which isn’t, doesn’t always reflect the absolute reality, but cladding and the external walls is absolutely the key issue I’d say, if not the sole issue and one that we are looking at on a day to day basis with with building surveys, but also in terms of projects and remedial work.

So it’s you started there mentioning that possibly it had quietened down, but it’s still very much at the forefront of. Of what’s happening in the building industry and in the surveying industry. I guess you, you can’t keep that intensity up from 2000, June, 2017, up to now, like you said, the seven years that you, there’s always going to be lulls in that and the coverage that it can be given, but absolutely.

We’re still in the middle of it. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. I think the challenge of keeping it in the media, I think we’ve had just as many. Prime ministers as years, I think almost in that time. So it’s, there’s so many other things creating noise. It’s yeah, it’s difficult to keep it in the forefront, I think. But I imagine it’s going to be back up there.

Yeah, at the moment with what’s just happened, what’s the biggest thing that’s happened since say Grenfell seven years ago, have we seen a number of buildings? a good proportion of buildings have been remediated and the cladding has been changed or are there big blockers in the process still that are meaning that buildings like the one in Dagenham still have cladding on the outside?

That’s a good, that’s a good 

Jay Ridings: question. There. Clear. Clearly there’s a lot of focus on fire safety. I think if you look at the Hackett report, building a Safer Future there were fundamental issues with the way the construction industry works and the way that the regulations are set out.

So it wasn’t a case of oh yeah, someone, someone’s built. this one particular building in West London that had some issues. And there was a slight problem with the response or from the way it was built or the way it was approved or whatever it was. There is a fundamental cultural problem with the industry and this, and this need to be improved.

It was always going to be a slow, difficult process in order to resolve the problems that, that we have. So it’s taken some time and but we can see that those changes have happened. So there’s been a lot of regulatory changes over that period of time. It is happening. Then, if you look towards the remediation process, that’s, another part of it, but one that I personally am not so close to because I do a lot of looking at existing buildings, spotting the problems, not then fixing them.

But TFT as a company and obviously my involvement in, in, with RSCS and the industry, I can see that these things are happening from what. I understand that there are funds that have been made available through various government schemes, but it’s been. It’s been a slow process to actually release those funds and undertake the remedial works that are required.

And I think there’s a lot of buildings affected, not just tall, high risk buildings with residential with sleeping risk and residential accommodation in them. There are lots of other buildings as well. If you’re just looking at the high risk with residential and sleeping risk, Then I think the process has been slow anyway, the release of funds has been slow anyway, so not, we haven’t seen high proportion of that accommodation remedied, I don’t think, and I think there’s a, I think there’s a goal to maybe remedy most of that by September 2028, I read.

But then if you then look beyond that at other types of buildings, commercial buildings, lower rise, low to medium rise buildings then there’s a whole host of, Work still to be done. So there’s, it started, but it’s a difficult process. It’s a multifaceted process with really loads of different parts to it.

So there’s more work to be done. 

Matt Nally: I can imagine. That’s one of my questions was going to be what’s the scale of the issue. And I suppose in terms of, do you know what the proportions look like in terms of how many buildings are high rise resi versus a commercial or a low rise resi or is it very mixed across the board?

It’s difficult to answer the question actually as well, cause it is to do it by number of buildings or number of people occupying. And yeah it’s a 

Jay Ridings: really, it’s a really difficult question to answer in that the commercial world and the residential world. Are completely overlap.

So within the commercial world, where, how do you define that exactly? You’ve got build to rent sector, private rented sector, purpose-built student accommodation sector, hotels and some of them of those buildings fall within, what’s defined as residential, what’s a relevant building under the building regulations what’s a higher risk building under the Building Safety Act?

Yeah, so it’s difficult. It’s difficult to to say, figures that I’ve seen are social landlords, social housing providers have sort of 10, 000. I was looking it up earlier. Around 10, 000 unsafe buildings, which are the taller, higher risk buildings. I think they were talking about one in 10 of their portfolio is affected in this way.

But I think the numbers are probably higher. And if you look at commercial buildings that we look at, it’s all on a spectrum, isn’t it? But we There, there probably isn’t a building we look at that doesn’t have fire safety issues, whether that’s in this topic, one external walls or whether, whether it’s internal fire safety issues as well.

So it’s, it’s ubiquitous basically is really throughout and it just depends how big is the problem. I suppose one of the interesting 

Matt Nally: things that would be. to look at, because you mentioned you go out on site and you do yeah, what’d you call it? Reports on existing buildings. So how do you start from an internal external perspective at looking at the building and understanding what how safe it is, or whether it’s got the right things in place.

Jay Ridings: Yeah. That, that process really starts at fee proposal stage when you’re looking at what building you’re looking at. If you’re looking at a single story shed, for example, where there’s no sleeping risk, you’re already preparing yourself for what you’re going to come, you half what you’re going to expect with that type of building and the risks that it brings.

So it all starts there. Then when you go to site, You’re ready for the prominence that the external walls are going to make to your survey and the survey recommendations. So clearly, if you’re looking at a hotel or you’re looking at a build to rent private rented sector block, or you’re looking at building with some residential and some other use, you’re already aware that this The external walls are going to play an absolutely key part of the, what the risks are for that building.

So when you then go to site, you’re. You’re then going to have a greater focus on the external walls, what materials have been used both on the outside face, but also the insulation within that wall system. And also how that insulation is contained both with it by the external cladding and the internal cladding.

Lightning, because that makes a difference in terms of regulations. So you’re primed and preparation as with everything is absolutely key. And then really all bits of surveying. It’s quite simple. You busy yourself on site and you get into the fabric as much as as much as possible.

Which, you know, with building surveying. It’s it’s funny because it is ironic that when we build buildings, we do absolutely everything to conceal the building fabric and make it look like it’s not some raw, form of construction made of actual, actual structural materials.

So it can be challenging at times, but you’ve really got to try and lift the lid on it. If you like, try and get into the cladding, behind the cladding as much as possible. And, if you think about the key cladding types that are a concern, it’s those rain screen types of cladding, like ACM, ACMs that were on Grenfell.

So you, then you’re trying to, you’re trying to get around the side of those panels to understand what’s going on. Do they have a core or are they a solid panel? For example what is the insulation behind them? But there’s only so far you’re going to get normally in that, that first stage carrying out a TDD.

Building survey. If you then have concerns, you then obviously you raise them and then you carry out a more detailed intrusive investigations if it’s required. But the other really important thing to say, which I’ve been banging on about for years is the importance of information because again, you’re only going to get so much from the building survey.

It’s one day. in time on that site, looking at that building where that building has had however many years of history behind it with however, whatever record information there is available in the past with a development team and construction team in place. And, so there’s loads of history there and it’s our job to.

To try and find that history. And now one of the, one of the Hackett review recommendations was creating that golden thread of information, that audit trail of information, and that is so valuable to what we do. So finding O and M operation and maintenance manuals on site, record drawings on site with.

Marked up elevations, marked up sections of the external walls, manufacturers, literature things, what are called BBA certificates, which show the fire resistance of materials that have been used reports that may exist, for showing that the facades have been tested or fire engineers have already looked at those external walls.

Information is really important as well as the physical inspection. 

Matt Nally: I can imagine because it gives you a much better picture. And of course, I imagine you have to trust but check, see the information, but is it, is that what’s actually been installed or is that what’s actually in place?

Jay Ridings: Absolutely. There’s a whole, that’s a really good point because often we find, and this is a really common theme, is what the drawings tell you is there, isn’t necessarily there. there. And a really good example of that is cavity barriers and fire stops. The drawings and the information may indicate that they should have been installed or have been installed.

And then actually when you undertake intrusive investigations that they’re either, they’re not there. Or they’re fitted it incorrectly. 

Matt Nally: Oh, that’s interesting. So you mentioned and touched on briefly earlier culture as a as an issue between loads of different parts of the process and not finger pointing at any particular group.

But that all related to, to culture as well? The fact that, is it people choosing not to put stuff in cause it saves costs or is it actually a training issue and it’s just, misunderstanding what’s required or, and potentially with collecting this information in the first place and building up these pictures on a building as to what’s happened over time is that a cultural thing as well, where people just aren’t in, in the habit of.

Storing all this type of data. 

Jay Ridings: Yeah. Yeah. I think if you go back to what we originally what how I started off saying it’s a very interrelated. It’s to do with all of those things that you mentioned, arguably inadequate training unclear regulations, possibly an under resourced sector.

If you think about building control and the checks that, that they have undertaken and then you only need to. Have listened to some of the Grenfell inquiry and the the articles and the books that have followed, which clearly show culturally. You can look at the quality of work and the training given to people who are actually building the systems, arguably maybe speaking slightly outside of my being sure of that fact.

But what was demonstrated was that approvers and the manufacturers. There was clearly culturally some need to watch my step a little bit here, but I don’t think I’m saying anything that hasn’t been proven. Or said by others, there were people who were. We’re using loopholes and purposefully installing systems and vouching for products that just weren’t doing what they were supposed to do.

I’m never going to sum up all the shortfalls and the issues that were Grenfell inquiry on this podcast, but But in short, there is, there’s clearly has been a cultural problem and it’s not just from one set of people. I think some parts are worse than others. I think it’s probably fair to say.

Matt Nally: Definitely. Definitely. I think one thing that possibly happens in that scenario as well is when something happens higher up for everybody else, it just becomes a norm over time. And you don’t necessarily realize it’s incorrect because that’s what you’re being told to do. And you assume that’s.

Best practice or the best new material or whatever it might be. So it’s, yeah, you get ingrained cultural mindsets just through not realising. It’s 

Jay Ridings: It’s almost heard mentality and this joint consciousness that if they’re doing it, then it must be okay. And then everyone just carries on in that fashion because it’s, it just seems to be accepted.

Matt Nally: Yeah, absolutely. And it becomes just the norm. One, one, one thing that we discussed, I think off this, but was the resolution process around outdoors. And I’m guessing lots of challenges around how you remediate sort of the findings that you the findings you have on site, so you touched on the fact that there was Like first stage might be to do some further investigations, but what does the steps look like after that in terms of you suspect something’s wrong, perhaps with a certain material is that then sent off for investigation and then beyond that as looking at then how it gets removed from the building and access and all those types of factors.

Jay Ridings: So as I mentioned, you carry out that first survey. And then it either raises concerns or it doesn’t. Obviously, if it doesn’t, it goes no further. If you then have concerns, you obviously need to follow that through. And there tends to be established processes and flowcharts about how you go down, down those paths.

A typical route, if you have concerns, is to, and I mentioned it earlier, appoint a fire engineer to carry out a PAS 9980 assessment, which is an appraisal of the external walls, which again, specifically it’s meant to be for blocks of flats, but it’s been a sort of established methodology. It’s the established methodology behind the EWS1 forms for lending purposes but that can be applied to commercial buildings as well.

This all goes back to building regulations and then how they work. Apologies for. Teaching anyone to suck eggs or going over the basics, but building regulations set out the prescriptive requirements in order to what needs to be done by a building to comply with regulations, but then flowing down from that, the approved documents, which are acting as guidance to what, what needs to be done to then achieve building regulations.

And there is a kind of. The dark arts almost of building regulations compliance, because obviously you’ve then got that guidance, which then demonstrates that you’ve complied, but it’s not always prescriptive. And there are specifically for approved document B and fire safety, there are fire engineering routes in order to, Achieve compliance.

So the reason I’m saying all of that is it’s not always immediately obvious whether a problem is a problem or a shortfall is a is a significant shortfall that actually needs remediation. So that’s why that next step is the past 9980 review to assess whether an external wall is tolerable or it’s not.

And action is then needed. So once you’ve established whether it’s needed or not needed, if it is needed, you’re obviously going down the route of right. Let’s specify what remediation works are required what further investigations are required to establish the, Remediation specification and then you develop it from there and it becomes a project and it, it goes over to the project team to specify those works and get those procured.

Matt Nally: It’s fascinating because it’s very easy to thinking back to the media articles and it suddenly gets very easy to read that and go. One wrong cladding, why was it put on in the first place? Just change it. What takes so long? And actually you’re right. There’s so much that has to go on in the background to understand what was the cause what was actually the best solution, how’d you go about it?

So this is super complicated. 

Jay Ridings: And then Matt, not just the what’s, what needs to be done and what’s the best way to go about it, but also really complicating matters is. What was the requirement? What was the contractual requirement for the construction of those external walls?

And, can who is accountable? And I think that’s been a large part of the problem, isn’t it? Who’s actually accountable for this? Is it? Is it the developer? Is it? Is it the manufacturer? Who have been shown to be really in, have gone way over the line is it the design team for then trusting those guys how tight is the specification?

So is the contractor actually, fully on the hook or was the specification actually not that. not that clear and doesn’t actually stipulate what needed to be done properly. And then finally, it’s the contractor who’s responsible or is the design team who are responsible? Are they still around?

Cause lots of those, the industry, particularly external wall contractors, subcontractors, those guys go into administration really quite, Regularly, so lots of them won’t be around and then main contractors, not quite as bad But lots of them have are no longer around So there’s not always a team to actually go back on and then it’s all about funding.

So Some it’s complicated. 

Matt Nally: Oh, definitely and even within those companies people have left and moved on and you don’t have the full picture again So it’s potentially depending on record keeping so yeah multifaceted I think that’s been a really interesting first part looking at the externals.

And obviously I think there’s even more we could probably go into you can spend several hours on this topic, but I think let’s move on to internal fire safety. So to tune in for part two.