Episode 34 – Part 3: Improving marketing in the surveying industry, with Nina Young from Surveyors UK

The following transcript is autogenerated so may contain errors.

Matt Nally: For part three, our final part of this week’s episode with Nina from surveyors UK, we’re looking at improving marketing in the surveying industry. So we touched on in part one, that you’ve got a bit of a background in marketing and you’ve done a lot in that. 

 I think in part two, we touched on the fact that some people will be able to provide content for surveyors UK. Blog posts and guest bits and pieces, but content, I suppose for me ties into marketing. So I suppose for you as a background what do you consider sort of marketing activities generally, and what do you think of them in the surveying industry?

Nina Young: Yeah, it’s, yeah it’s an interesting one. And when I think I’ll probably go into this second question first, actually, which is generally the, the surveillance as a whole, I think it’s quite behind the curve, if I’m honest. I think I come across so from a marketing perspective, websites branding, logos.

social media. And I see it a lot, obviously across all different types of surveyors different size businesses, but I think it’s probably generally behind the curve. So I see a lot of websites that are literally where someone has just uploaded a CV. I don’t think enough is invested generally by either individual firms on the importance of what it is to market yourself.

Okay. For example, if you go back to what we discussed in our earlier episode about where I don’t think enough people know what a survey does, I think surveyors all have a part to play the more they market themselves and promote themselves. the more then people will understand surveyors do. But I think maybe it comes down to the inherent nature of the work.

Whereas it’s very technical, a lot of surveyors will profess to be quite geeks, geeky. I don’t necessarily think it’s a natural sort of a natural fit, obviously I’ve done a lot of digital marketing for because that’s not what they do. What they do best is.

go out and do surveys. If we think about, the area that we’re in within, you’re in, sorry with SurveyBooker and around the residential building surveying area, that’s what they do. And I think they forget about the importance of literally your shop window, this is, when someone looks for surveyor, they will do typical things.

They will maybe type in Google surveyor near me. And I know so many surveyors who with their businesses that don’t even have a Google business profile, don’t even have that as a minimum. 

Matt Nally: Social media is the way to stand out. 

Nina Young: Yeah. And it’s also that social media side is if you do social media, you either do it well or you don’t do it at all because people will judge you on it immediately.

If I know so many people that will look at a survey’s profile on Facebook. They haven’t posted for six months. Are they still operating? Are they still in business? And it literally, they will make that decision there and then, Oh, no. Whereas if maybe they didn’t find it, it might not be as bad. So it can actually harm you if you don’t do it well from that social media side.

I’ve probably digressed a bit much there, but gone off at a time with you there, Matt, but some of my thoughts off the curve I was thinking of. 

Matt Nally: I hadn’t thought of the if you’ve got a social media post up, but it’s been months since you’ve done it, but it does look like, potentially you’re not operating anymore.

What is, what’s the reason why you’re not yeah. Still out there? So I agree. And it’s the same, it’s possibly 

Nina Young: be busy. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. 

Nina Young: That tends to happen. And then what they’ll do is, what tends to happen is suddenly if it goes quiet, like with obviously within the property market, within that type of surveying, residential they then start to do social media posts.

But you’ve got to do it consistently because you’re building up awareness of who you are so that you come into mind Because a house purchases, only twice three times in your lifetime And so someone sees it and then a friend goes I’m buying this house to go. Oh, I saw this post the other day about I’m thinking about Facebook, for example, because you’re in their mindset, I think it needs to be done consistently.

It’s a it’s a slow build. It’s organic. It doesn’t happen overnight. You suddenly do some posts and then you get, loads of people coming in. It doesn’t work that way. 

Matt Nally: No, and equally as much as it’s a slow build to see the impact. It’s equally, once you get busy as a result of having done it, if you do stick to it, when you get busy, you can’t then stop doing it because.

So suddenly the pipeline dries back up. So just as you just as you start finding you’re getting quiet, you realize it’s going to take you three months to start seeing the impacts of trying to get back on it again, so you’ve got to stay consistent. But I think one of the other things you touched on is touch points.

I think it’s hard to call it, which is Unless you use that word already. I can’t remember if I thought it or you said it, but I 

Nina Young: think you thought of that word. 

Matt Nally: But it’s looking at all the different touch points you have as a customer. It’s your Google listing. It’s your, how does the website look?

How easy is it to inquire? What do the emails look like when they come through? Or what’s the, what you like on the phone or all these different aspects. And it’s not just about yeah, doing some social media posts or a blog post. It’s making sure everything is slick. Yes, it’s 

Nina Young: that consistent branding, that consistent perception, because you judge so fast, as soon as someone lands on your website, if they can’t figure out, What they need to know within, I don’t know, 15, 20 seconds.

And they are, or it looks, it’s not loading properly or it’s, there isn’t a form. How do you contact us? And they’re trying to find that the leaf, just leave. And so you’ve lost them straight away. And it’s also, have you updated things? If you have a blog section, which some, surveys do, which is great for content, great for traffic, SEO, gets people to your site.

But if you’ve done a blog, but you haven’t done a blog for a year, so you land on that and go, Oh, and it just feels, and it’s that consistent piece. So like you say, you’re right. And even when you literally meet, you meet, you’re, the, you go to a house to do a server example, and it’s how you presented, and I think there’s a lot of debate over, for example, do you brand your car?

Do you wear branded? Clothes. There’s a lot of that. There’s very much very divided, 

and 

Nina Young: I don’t think there’s no right or wrong answer. I think I do know a lot of surveyors benefit hugely on business because they have in a local area and everyone constantly sees their vehicle brand, they see their name everywhere, and that’s just constantly, you say another touch point, people see you all the time.

So I think, there is no right or wrong, everyone has their way of doing things, but I think you have to, if you’ve got a name, does that name, displayed the same. Some, sometimes I’ve seen it where there’s a long business company name and the limited on the end and then somewhere else it’s like a, it’s been shortened and it’s is that the same company?

And personality, I think about us, the about us section on site, it’s there’s no picture. And I think it means people buy from people. And I think having, those where you’ve got an image of you, I know people don’t like it, but I think it does make a big difference. And you show a bit of personality.

What do I do? I’ve got some interesting hobbies, something quirky about you. Not just, I’ve been a surveyor for 30 years because. It’s it’s that’s seen as a, I don’t know, expected, that’s just, doesn’t really do it. When you talk about your USPs and things like that for me, it’s like those extra things that people do when we will call you briefly after the survey to give you a brief overview of what’s happening.

That is so brilliant because it’s good communication, it gives reassurance, because people will be waiting for that report to come through. 

Matt Nally: And then making sure you do that. 

Nina Young: Yeah. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. You got it. Yeah. It’s important you then do that. And if you can’t get through, leave the voicemail. So there’s no uncertainty that you did try to.

Be 

Nina Young: approachable. Yeah. Be approachable. Don’t hide behind emails. I think people do want to talk to you. I think they do. And you can convey things. Obviously you don’t necessarily need to go into detail with the report, but you can convey things so much better. Just by, describing it over the phone.

Matt Nally: We’ll talk about conveying things better. I think we, we touched on this, I think before we started recording this particular part, but and you mentioned the second year you’re at USPS and I was going to talk about actually features benefits too. So I think one of the common mistakes I tend to see on Websites or potentially what surveyors might say to someone trying to say, this is why you use me.

It ends up not being a USP. So USP being a unique selling point for anyone that doesn’t know the jargon for that. But it’s, if you’re saying, I’m RSCS, I’m chartered, I’m 30 years experience, local traffic, like reports, jargon, free reports, whatever it might be, all those types of things. Actually there’s, there.

That they’re keeping you to the same level as my, maybe not the 30 years. You might be 10 years or whatever the experience is different, but keeping you at the same level as everybody else. It’s not saying this is why you spend more. I think the other difficulty when you’ve got, again, looking at this from the consumer side, rather than from your own perspective is not listing features that you’re selling.

So drone survey or it’s includes X, Y, Z, what’s the benefit of that? I don’t know what that means. I think they’re the challenges. Stating 

Nina Young: what it is, but what does that mean? You’ve got to put yourself in the mind of that consumer. What does it mean to them? So what if you have this traffic light?

Yeah, but what does that mean? It means we bring to your attention very quickly the really key important parts that you need to focus on and you can digest it and it saves them a bit of time because we know a lot of people will just read that bit. They don’t even go to the rest of the report, but you’re right, it’s I think there’s a lot of that.

We, we have done this for years and we’re this and it’s what does that mean? It’s I think a lot of it comes down to put personally down to emotion. So it’s extremely stressful time. Buying a house and you’re looking for something that’s going to provide, some form of reassurance information and to help inform you on whether, to go ahead and, purchase this property or negotiate and that can save time that saves money.

And I think the ability to turn on reports in certain timescale, because The house buying process takes so long anyway, if they can say, I’m gonna, we’ll turn it around in three days and that means you can then make a decision and then get in touch and maybe negotiate and it’s explaining what that will enable them to do.

Because most people don’t actually know what is involved. It’s half the challenge is to get people to actually instruct a survey in the first place, which is a challenge. Oh different thing. And then it’s what, the drone surveys are really good. It’s brilliant. And some surveyors, they add it as a bolt on to their survey.

But, okay, great, what does that mean? It means that we can literally get up and have a full view of the roof and the chimney and look at the implications of something that you don’t see from the ground. When you’re watering a house you have no idea what’s going on with the chimney up there and whether it’s going to fall in through the roof.

That’s dramatic, but it does happen. And because you don’t want that when you move in, and it’s a safety aspect, there’s so many things, 

Matt Nally: Yeah, I think the example you gave about the the call. One is nice in terms of what does a call mean? And what it means we can help you understand the report and give you guidance on how to approach your next steps with the agent or the vendor, or so, so it’s confidence with your next steps, not just answering some questions, but we’ll help guide you on.

What you might need to do that might not be the right advice for some people in terms of liability and so on. But the point is being reiterated, which is, yeah. What does it mean? What’s the value in that thing you’re talking about rather than it just being here’s another feature where we’re providing what I suppose what on the flip side, what do you see surveyors do well, and then we can, focus on what can surveyors potentially do better in terms of ideas that we can offer.

But Yeah, what do you see surveyors do well at the moment, generally? 

Nina Young: Generally I think it comes down to, some of the surveyors, I’ve worked with doing the digital marketing side. So I get a lot more involved in their day to day and what they do, but it really does touch on what we’ve just been discussing.

Some surveyors that literally are really good at communicating. So they, their reports, for example, are just free of jargon. They’re concise, they get everything that someone needs to know, but it’s not reams and reams long. Clear summaries, but they also talk. They talk to the, whoever’s instructed the survey, they talk to them, they explain it, give them a summary.

And they also say, if you need to know anything else, get in touch and ask that question. So they’re approachable, they communicate and they’re approachable. And I guess what I have seen is, it can be seen as inherently negative, in its nature because you are Oh, 

Matt Nally: surveys?

Nina Young: Yeah. Cause you won’t look at the defects, which could hamper someone’s dream house purchase. It’s a very stress, like I said, stressful. So I think empathy is another thing that I see really good surveyors do. They really put themselves in the position. of that, of literally that homebuyer, and they adjust their manner, their tone, how they deal with them differently, do a lot of listening as well, find out a lot about what this person’s looking for, what type of person they are, and you can then tailor your communication accordingly.

If you just stay in that same, Routine. I don’t think that’s as effective and I don’t think you’ll get the same customer feedback and reviews. I think you’ve got to put yourself in everyone’s individual situation and, appreciating this is a very stressful time for somebody and they really need, your thoughts as an expert but conveyed in a, I’d say, I guess not necessarily, positive is not really the right word, but a thoughtful way.

Matt Nally: Yeah. I think you’ve touched on that effectively whereas surveyors might accidentally sell through fear or market through fear, i. e. on, on the website, it’s, this is the most expensive purchase you’ll ever make. Don’t screw it up effectively. Whereas actually it’s, this is the most expensive purchase you’ll ever make will help you take your next steps with confidence.

It’s just a reframing of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Nina Young: Yeah, we are supporting you on this house buying journey, and making sure you’re informed, not just of anything that, needs immediate attention, but other things that can inform someone of maintenance, or things to do with, some of this falls into conveniency, but some of these things to do with the boundary, or what’s happening in the area.

Because local surveyors know so much knowledge of an area, and they can impart that. You could say, oh, I’m worried about this housing development down the road, and a surveyor will know, probably know what that’s about. And can maybe talk about it and go, Oh, yeah, that’s X, Y, and Z that’s going to, that’s not going further.

Or, it’s just that local knowledge, I think, and people, they can, surveyors that really know their local patch are invaluable and they can share that, the nuances of things. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. Yeah, again, it ties back into storytelling. So rather than just Explaining things in a sort of very factual, potentially boring way.

You can tell the story of someone else that you helped out to name names, but in a similar property and how they’re doing now and all that type of stuff. So someone can see how they go from being potential purchaser to. Successful owner in the same way as somebody else they’ve helped. Yeah, I think the shock 

Nina Young: tactics don’t work, and you’ve seen this in so many different areas different professions and different things where it’s look, Oh, my house is falling down.

You need, if you’ve got a crack in your house, and it’s that panic kind of thing. But I think that in part doesn’t help people instructing the survey, because I actually think deep down a lot of people don’t necessarily do it, because they have the rose tinted glasses on this house.

Matt Nally: Yeah. Do 

Nina Young: they really want to know? 

Matt Nally: They’re willing to give it a rubber stamp for approval. Yeah. And 

Nina Young: it’s almost like I’m inviting someone to basically tell me what’s wrong with it potentially, but this is going to be my dream home. And I do think that plays a part in the whole, should I get a survey or not?

It’s literally, Oh. I don’t know. Dunno if I want to know, it’s like I’ve watched around that I can see it’s fine, and it’s like a bit blinkered. 

Matt Nally: Yeah, I agree cha. Chances are it’s fine. I’ll take the risk and at least I’ve still got it if it’s not and then obviously then the reality hits later and when it fall 

Nina Young: through, all the crazy times through Covid, the overinflate house price.

Oh, it’s madness. And people are just like, not gonna get surveyed ’cause they don’t wanna slow it down there. They’ve just, they’ve gotta get that house. 

Matt Nally: That’s yeah, it’s a tough one, but yeah, you’re right. It’s ultimately you’re dealing with someone at a point where they’re in a very emotional state in the buying process.

I suppose with marketing then how can you use it practically to differentiate yourself and charge ultimately a higher fee or, because one of the, one of the challenges in the market we hear a lot is downward pressure on fees. I partly believe part of that is from not being able to differentiate.

So if you can’t differentiate, then of course. If everyone is saying the same thing I’ll go with the cheapest. Cause why would I pay more for, something that looks exactly the same. I’ve given this example before with cars, I go on auto trader, there’s six Ford focuses. They’ve all got the same features being listed as well.

I’ll get the cheapest. Whereas if one of them saying, Oh, actually I’ve got all these added value points. Yeah, then I’m willing to spend more on that one. It’s got the heated seats, it’s got the air con, whatever it might be. There’s probably better features now than it’s been a while since I’ve bought a car.

But yeah, so for me, it’s the same thing. How do you think some areas can better differentiate through, through their marketing efforts? I 

Nina Young: think they’re made to make it clear what it is they do. What makes them different, going back to the unique selling points, I do think a lot of, but this is generally within any business you’re trying to generate business from is it’s it doesn’t work by osmosis people.

You’ve got to imagine that someone’s landing on your site and you, they have no idea. What are surveys? They have no idea. So you have to firstly guide them and make it very clear, to navigate the site as to what you offer. But I think a lot of it comes down to speaking to someone and talking.

And I think that’s one of the biggest Hurdles that surveys have, they’re not good at selling themselves. Yeah. And what they do. I know, and picking up that phone and talking about, we will do this because this is going to save you time. We’ll, we’ll give you access to an online report.

You don’t have to wait for us to post something. a few days down, the old school way of doing it. And you can view it online and give us a call when you’ve had a read. And then it’s mentioning those things that you do on the site, but also speaking to them. And I know a lot of surveyors, especially when they start out on their own, they use the comparison, the, like the, these sites for lead generation.

Which, I actually can see, once you get going, I can see that, I don’t think that’s a bad thing, to get going, but for me, one of the biggest things is you get reviews. You provide such a good quality service, and you ask for feedback, and I think a lot of surveyors don’t do that. They don’t ask for feedback, and just send an email, but then follow it up, and you don’t have to feel like you’re hounding, because you don’t, but a lot of people don’t naturally give feedback to you.

Positive people will review, will give you a negative review straight away, but you have to prompt and you need feedback everywhere. Like for example, Google reviews are brilliant. Google reviews are brilliant because they your ranking goes straight up. So if you’re competing locally, you need to push those reviews because that will come up on the search and you will come higher up.

And I don’t think, I think there’s a lot of fear of asking for that feedback. 

Matt Nally: Yeah, it must be to do with this, yeah, the social, not anxiety is the wrong word, but aside of it, because there’s people fearing being judged and what happens if someone does say something bad. If people are, then it gives you an opportunity to address something.

But most people actually, if you ask them for good feedback, we’ll give you good feedback. But 

Nina Young: yeah, people aren’t 

Matt Nally: forthcoming. 

Nina Young: No, they’re not. And you’ve got to really push that. And so you’ve got to reinforce it in different ways. Like even, especially when you’re speaking to them. If you’re happy with what I’ve done when you get this, please give us a review and I’ll send you this through an email.

And you’ve got your own processes set up, which I’m sure SurveyBooker has with that kind of, that facilitates that kind of follow up process. And then just keep re engaging with people, and reminding them of the, of review. But also the feedback is essential because then, like you say, you don’t put your head in the sand.

People will tell you what, and you’ll learn so much from it. You’ll learn so much from that feedback that you’ll tweak things and you won’t things that you won’t realise, and stand on your ground and know your own worth about this race to the bottom. It’s you know, don’t feel that you have to just drop your price, you’ve got to literally pitch and put together what it is that sets you apart. And everyone’s different as to what they do, so I can’t say anything. What that would be. But getting confident and going, no, this is why we are not. Cause I, I spoke to a surveyor the other day who said, we actually make it very clear, we are not the cheapest.

We actually upfront say that. So that saves a lot of time and, but it works for them because we are not the cheapest, but we do this, and this. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. And then people understand why then, and they’re happy to pay. I think one, one is one, and you touched on this slightly with I think I’m going to call it automation, tech automation.

And so one of those on a very simple level is having a good website and there’s a contact form and someone can fill that in to get in touch. 

And 

Matt Nally: then of course you can have the call that you mentioned, which is important. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Matt Nally: I think that’s a form of automation. You’ve had a form that collects some information before you can get in touch.

Yeah. What I find interesting is sometimes automation from there can be completely misconstrued. So automation means chatbots can’t speak to the customer. It’s hands off, but I’m personal. And you’re going it’s about how you set it up. So for example, if you’re on holiday, you probably would set an out of office.

It’s an 

Matt Nally: automated response that sets expectations. 

And 

Matt Nally: that’s the same thing for how you set up the initial inquiry. Inquiry comes in, you can have an auto response to set expectations rather than, did it go through? When am I going to hear from you? 

Nina Young: That’s really bad. You don’t get 

Matt Nally: that anymore.

Nina Young: Yeah. It’s not the chatbot thing, is it? It is literally just, it’s that trigger point. It triggers that next action. This is all that kind of thing is what we’re What I’m working hard on with SurveysUK is that there’s touch points, then people get in touch with you, you get an email, and then there’s a follow up and it’s that keeping, it’s like when you’re sat in a the worst thing I think if you’re sat on a motorway, and the traffic stops, and you’re like, oh, and you can feel yourself like, oh, getting stressed, getting annoyed, and it’s like, And then you’re like, what’s going on?

And people really stressed out. If you then suddenly found out there’s a cow on the road and, they’re trying to get it off the rack. People just go, you immediately go, ah, okay. 

And it’s going to be half an hour. It’s annoying, but it’s fine. So people need to know what’s happening. And like I’m saying with the house buying thing, stress, they are stressed to the max and they will take out on you if they haven’t heard back from you.

So it’s you’ve got to keep them in touch, even if you were, I think, even if you were going to be late for some reason. And these things happen and you don’t get the report to your timeline you said, let them know. Just let them know. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. Yeah. Be 

Nina Young: human as well. Human. Be honest. Because I think people do appreciate that.

Matt Nally: Yeah. Yeah. Things happen. I don’t mind if something’s two days late, as long as I know. It’s annoying. But I completely don’t have a problem. I think we’ve touched on a couple of nice things then. Consistency being the key one about consistency across the journey, consistency Within each thing that you do rather than just dropping and starting.

Is there anything else you think as a sort of wrap up point for marketing that is a good thing for surveyors to think about? 

Nina Young: I think it’s appreciating and, people say, I would say this, but appreciating that using someone that knows marketing, because I see a lot that will try and do it themselves.

From whether it’s their website, whether it’s getting their logo done whether it’s social media and they are not marketeers, surveys are not marketeers. And, when I do work for my clients within digital marketing, I’m looking at it from the, who are they trying to get to, who are they marketing?

And I’m looking at it from that perspective. And I think too many spend too much time trying to spend hours, trying to do things themselves, even the social media. Don’t get me wrong, some are good at it, but it’s generally, it’s not what they do. And they need to sit down and consider, because I remember saying to one client, and I talked to him about, me doing their social media and things.

And I said, what you need to consider is how much is your time worth? How much is an hour of your time? You need to be doing surveys. Is that time spent doing surveys? Or is it doing social media posts? Because someone doing social media will take a lot less time. They’ve got the tools. They can publish.

They can schedule things. You don’t have that time. And your time is better spent doing what you do, what you know best. And I think that’s the advice I would always give, is that invest. Spend that bit more on your logo. Spend that. More money on your brand because with surveyors UK, the number one thing above everything else is how many people will comment on the logo, on the brand.

I get it every day, every call I go onto, someone comments on that sign. And I’m like, it’s that, and it’s reinforcing it. So people are constantly seeing it as well. Obviously that’s not necessarily what, residential surveyors are going to be doing sat on zoom calls. Although you could, you, there’s no reason why you can do a face to face, is there with a, and it’s also using the different technologies, like Some people want to communicate on WhatsApp and get a hold of you.

Are you willing to do that? Because more and more people, that’s what they want, communicate through your social media and people do want that. And it’s you’ve got to move with the times and I’m going on to another subject, but yeah, keep, invest in, in your brand, on your marketing and your website.

Keep it up to date, keep it working properly, make it slick, pay someone to do that website developer, because first impressions count. Whether it’s the, when you turn up at a doorstep or you’re, I don’t know, any of your branding and that you’ve got to make it impactful.

Matt Nally: Yeah, I agree. Philosophy for us with our software. It’s, do you spend more hours doing admin, whether it’s your admin team or or yourself, or do you do you spend more time doing surveys? That’s exactly it. One’s earning you money. One’s costing you time.

Yeah, absolutely. 

Nina Young: Outsource that kind of thing, isn’t it? It’s outsourcing and that, and SurveyBooker enables that and saves so much time, like you say. And it’s that time is much better spent doing what you qualify to do. 

Matt Nally: Yeah. And I agree with your very last point, which is It touch points, offer touch points that suit your customers.

Not that you prefer yourself as a customer offer that obviously. Yeah. If it’s a phone call for a phone call, but some do would just want to have an email, some do want to WhatsApp. Some do want to never speak to you ever at all. Yeah. That seems to be happening more and more, which is a shame. It’s nice to be able to get on the phone, but but then none of those are exclusive either, just because you offer WhatsApp doesn’t mean you can’t call them.

Or vice versa. So it’s 

Nina Young: things are changing out there, the technology and everything’s changing and people, everything’s got to be instant. People want instant answers. So we are in that nature now where people want something turned around very quickly. That’s why a call is really good after a survey, I think.

But yeah, I think it’s that think about your audience. Newer generations come on board, they want messenger. They want WhatsApp. They want to message you through Instagram even TikTok, probably. If not many surveys are on there, but yeah. 

Matt Nally: Yeah, no, I agree with all of that.

So I think I think, yeah, overall an interesting episode covering. Everything from, yeah, new talent and the marketing, but anything else you’d like to add just before we wrap up? 

Nina Young: I think that I think all surveyors have the opportunity to really help Elevate the profession in themselves and how they are out there, how they market themselves, how they, educate people on what a survey is, your websites included on the, inform people, because I think within especially residential.

I think everyone can play a part. I think more needs to be done at an industry level, definitely. We’re going to have a whole public facing side on Surveys UK because we’ve actually got members of the general public emailing us for surveys bizzarely. But I think our surveyors have, can do so much better just spreading awareness.

talking to people, being proud, no doubt what you do. And, I think over time, I think it will get better, but I think we’re quite behind the curve in that area. Yeah, 

Matt Nally: definitely. I think nice point to finish on. So thanks for coming on today. 

Nina Young: Yeah, it’s been great to talk to you, Matt.