Episode 24 – Part 3 – Getting Clued Up about Off-Mains Drainage with James Warren, UKDP

The following transcript is autogenerated so may contain errors.

Matt Nally  

In this next part, we’re going to cover getting clued up about off mains drainage. So I think it’s a starting point, just tying back into the last part around compliance and governance. If people want to go away and research more on the regulations on what are the different regulations that surround off mains drainage that they can do some research on? 

James Warren  

Yep, if they want to do the research. So there’s a few papers. So the one that we just spoke about is the small sewage discharge general binding rules. There’s a whole government section on their website about it. And it really is black and white, it’s a fantastic piece to read. If you like that sort of thing I do not everyone has overarching documents, you’ve got the Building Regulations 2010, Part H, section two super specific. Then there’s a 46 page document all about drainage fields, how to move

Matt Nally  

Small font or big font?

James Warren 

It’s, it’s whatever you want it if you if you zoom in, it’s the BS 6297 2007 A one is an awesome document I have read it cover to cover so many times, because this is where I go super boring. Drainage fields, the testing is straightforward. The installation is straightforward. If you follow this document, it’s it tells you how to dig the holes, what dimensions to dig how to fill it with water to what depth, it shows you a table of contents, what to look out for influencing parameters and characteristics, it literally tells you everything. And yet the amount of time we go to site and a drainage field has been installed incorrectly, they haven’t done the percolation test correctly. It makes me cry sometimes, but that document is awesome. And then to, to size these documents, there’s a document called flows and loads created by British water. So in between those documents, you know what size of plant you need, you know how to get it in the ground safely and correctly. You know what the drainage fill needs to be, you know, what you’re allowed to discharge into, it literally covers everything. So if you’ve got the building regs, Bs 69, seven flows and loads and the general binding rules, you have got everything covered, all online, all free of charge, you shouldn’t be able to get it wrong.

Matt Nally  

Sounds good. That’s good to have the stuff to refer to particularly if you’re, you know, you’ve just seen something out on site, and you want to back it up again. If you’re if you’re going out on site, I suppose starting with an older system, are there easy wins or key things to know about to look for in terms of either identifying differences in the type of solution in place, or what might be an issue or anything like that.

James Warren 

And certainly from an identification perspective, it’s really hard because there’s not a set number of manhole covers that tell you instantly what the system is underground. And even if there was because these systems are so old, typically you’ll find that if it’s a series of two manholes, one of those chambers might have been there’ll be soil and grass over one. So from the naked eye, you think, oh, there’s only one manhole where if you lifted it, you’ll see that it goes into a huge time. underground and the other chamber has been built over. So it’s really the point is to look out for is a sequence of manholes pointing in the same direction. That should tell you straight away that you’ve got multiple chambers or a series of chambers underground, that tells you straight away that it’s going to be an off mains drainage system, the vast majorities of the oldest systems will have these small little vent pipes not far off the ground, maybe only a foot above ground. And that will tell you straight away that that is venting one chamber of the septic tank. So again, just a quick visual to say this is an off mains drainage system. If you’ve got four or five manhole covers in a row, that’s actually a good sign. Because if you start lifting them, you should be able to have a manhole for access at the start the system, then the septic tank system, and then a chamber which should be on the distribution chamber, which is the start of the soakaway. You can then tell immediately, sort of mainstream system neato straightaway as a septic tank, and you can see whether there’s been any issues because without being too gross on this podcast, if you lift those chambers, and it’s all backed up in the manholes, then you know something isn’t working. And that tells you straight away, get it empty, get it checked and work out what on earth is going on? And how we’re going to put it right. But from a surveyors perspective, I feel really sorry for them because you go to site, there might not be what what if you’re on a shared system, and you’ve got no man who’s on your property, you’re just told you I’m on a septic tank, it might be 100 yards down the road, because you’re shared with four properties. So it’s a surveyors job is an absolute nightmare. But it would be down to companies like mine and others to trace it, have a look with the camera and then ascertain what what the system is what condition it’s in. And the shared situation, how many are connected to it. I’m going off on tangents again. I can’t help myself.

Matt Nally

I was just saying that it’s very good to soundbite actually. The easy things to look at that might signify issues or is it kind of just be really impossible to tell? Because I never mentioned about, you know, leakage and stuff like that. Yeah, well,

James Warren

I suppose I suppose without being picky. It’s defining what a problem means. If you look at the general binding rules, the biggest problem will be a septic tank discharge into a watercourse. But from a homeowner perspective, that isn’t a problem because it will never back up. It’s always got a weight, it’s always got that permanent release into the into the water because it’s never going to backup surcharge and, and causing issues with the facilities in the property. So that is that in my mind, that’s the biggest problem. But from a homeowner’s perspective, that is not a problem. But if you go to site, the red flag straightaway, if you lift covers, and there’s surcharging, detritus on the walls of the man, I’m sorry about this. It’s horrible. detritus on the manhole walls, you know, it’s been backed up. So you focus your mind, why is it backed up? If you look at if it’s a septic tank, and the level the liquid levels too low, you’re thinking there might be a fracture in the asset itself because the water is leaching out before it goes to the correct level and out the outlet pipe. If you look at a garden, and there’s boggy areas, you think, oh, that’s strange, you know that maybe that’s an indicator, the soakaways failed, and the water has found its way to ground level. There’s all sorts of things to look out for. And also it might be there’s the obvious a horrendous smell. Don’t get me wrong. If you empty a septic tank, it takes a couple of weeks to fill up to the normal level. When it’s got that much space inside the tank, the odours can be quite nasty. But once it reaches its operating level, there shouldn’t really be many odours after. So if it hasn’t been empty for a year, and it’s viciously smelly, that is also an indicator there might be a problem speaking to the owner as well, yes, I’ve gone from annual renting then it was six months and now it’s every three months straight away and there’s a problems with the soakaway it’s failing or it’s failed, hence the requirement for more frequent emptying. So you’re focusing your efforts on why is it failed? Can we fit a replacement system in but you’re literally on the lookout or not just looking but you’re listening to the customer as well. If the toilet is flushing the level in the pan goes up before it goes down slowly might be a night might be a might be a matchbox car in the you bend under the toilet or it might be a holistically fundamental problem and the whole system’s died. But yeah, you’re always looking out and listening out for any potential problems. Of

Matt Nally 

I think my penultimate question is the more likely to be issues with one type of system versus another or is it just down to when it comes to the end of its life?

James Warren 

Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah, no one system sort of jumps out as being problematic. Yes, a system, a soakaway can come to the end of its natural life. So it’s been in the ground. 3040 years just needs replacing, of course, it may be that there’s a problem, say with a septic tank, that having a negative impact on the software such as some of these systems have baffles some have what’s called Tea pipes or dip pipes, and they protect what leaves the septic tank, it doesn’t allow any fat oil and grease to exit the tank. If the baffle or the dip pipe, the TPS is not there, maybe it’s knocked off, maybe it’s fallen off. If there’s no protection for the soakaway, the fat oil and grease will get in there, it will choke up the small holes in the substrata where the water normally dissipates. And it will stop the water going anywhere apart from Back to the tank or breaking through ground. So yes, so grey may have come to the end of its natural life. Maybe there’s a fundamental problem, the septic tank, maybe it started collapsing, maybe there’s just a note, there’s just some sort of blockage that just needs a quick blast through And we’re back to normal. But there is no one specific make or manufacture or type of tank, they can all run for for an age. And they can all have problems.

Matt Nally 

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I suppose my quick the question that came up for me there was from the different reports you’ve potentially have seen, you know, from surveyors, when you’re going out on site, are there ones that you’ve seen a better in terms of explaining what what a potential customer or potential buyers are, you might need to consider when they’re sort of buying a property with that type of thing? Or is it something you’d say just try not to put too much information on Is there a better way to handle

James Warren 

the some surveys go into fantastic detail about off mainstream systems holistically, which I think is great, because it covers all aspects, if they’re not sure what the system is at the property, though surveyed, to the other end of the scale, where it’s a limited line, drainage system is not connected to the main sewer system. It needs to be independently checked. And that’s it. And to my mind, although the first one is super helpful, it’s it’s general, it’s holistic, it’s, it doesn’t actually help the potential purchaser in any way, just by listing all the different options, are we you and I can find that online in a heartbeat. I think what’s important is that it’s identified as not being on Main sewerage, and then jump immediately to getting it checked by a professional. It covers the surveyor, it helps the purchaser because within a heartbeat, you’re going to have a report saying what system is its condition, if it needs to be upgraded. And a surveyor doesn’t matter if they’ve been in the game for two years, they’re not going to have that knowledge from a walk round. What Why should they they they’re not going to have the kit with them. They haven’t got the experience in this specific underground world. So yes, referring their customer, to an expert, in my opinion, is what they should be doing in a heartbeat. So it’s,

Matt Nally  

I think, a good a good point to consider, though, if you’re worried about not providing advice, remembering actually, the justification is even you as a professional going out on site with the amount of kit you’ve got. And you still might not be able to find every answer straightaway. Exactly. Then actually, it’s perfectly, perfectly reasonable not to, you know, not to know the answer and to revert on so. Yeah, I suppose my final question then or on this particular topic is how can people learn more about off mains drainage other than obviously doing going online, looking at the, you know, the standards and reading all of that they’re sort of good courses you’d recommend or good other good resources that worth looking at?

James Warren 

On I’m bound to say this, and this podcast is not a sales pitch, but we have loads of blogs and free guides on our website. for that exact reason. We had years and years of interaction with customers where they’re saying, I just need something in plain English, you know, I’m not daft. I’m not silly. I can read. But some of these guides and regulations, they have to be black and white and super formal for a reason. They’re not designed for the everyday domestic consumer to go, oh, yeah, you’ve interpreted that beautifully into the real world in real world language. So that’s what we’ve done. And I’m sure many other companies similar to ours have done the same thing. But we’ve created easy to read sort of abbreviated versions of the regs in bite size pieces. So Joe Bloggs, Mrs. Smith can just take it, spend five minutes read up and have sufficient knowledge, sufficient information to then move this situation forward. Typically, people only come on to investigate this, once they have a problem. We haven’t come across a customer who’s literally searching for information because they’re bored. You only commit you only come into this world. If you’re selling a property buying a property or if you’ve got a problem. If you’ve got a neighbour dispute where they’re, they’re soakaways seeping into your land, there will be a reason for the approach in the first place. So hopefully, our website is super helpful for you getting a getting a sufficient background to hopefully put you in a position where you can make an informed decision.

Matt Nally  

I suppose it’s one of those difficult ones where it’s underground, out of sight out of mind this always be holding your roof so yeah, You can, it’s easy to ignore, until it really gets to be a problem.

James Warren

So turn that around, if you buy a new property and you spend 15,000 pounds on new kitchen, you are going to show that kitchen off, you buy a new house and you spend 15,000 pounds on a new sewage treatment plant, you’re not going to have a party to show off your sewage treatment plant because you go into the garden, and you’re going to see a flush manhole cover. And that’s it. So I totally understand that it’s important. But it’s not a priority when you buy a house even though it should be.

Matt Nally 

No it’s not, it’s not going to get the same level of interest, I think on your Instagram stories.