Episode 31 – Part 3 – Retrofit – what is the opportunity for surveyors? With Steve Lees

The following transcript is autogenerated so may contain errors.

Matt Nally: For our final part of this episode, so part three with Steve Lees from the RICS, we’re looking at retrofit and what was the opportunity around the retrofit side of things. And I think we touched quite nicely on this in part two, I think we mentioned about, net zero and the challenges for the property sector, and I think it’s been well reported that.

Potentially in the UK, we’ve got, an aging housing stock. And so compared to other countries like, across the EU potential houses are more inefficient as a result, but there’s obviously historical factors behind that. But as a starting point, should we cover what.

What retrofit is, and I suppose what you’re doing at the RICS around retrofit. 

Steve Lees: Yeah, thanks Matt. So I think in its broadest sense, retrofit is looking at how we can enable existing housing stock to meet with current and future requirements in terms of energy efficiency. As your listeners are probably aware that emission targets are set for 2050 in the UK and earlier than that in Scotland, where emission targets need to be.

to be met and there’s a government commitment. So residential properties play a big part in that. So I think we can all think of properties, either that we live in or locally that need to be upgraded to meet these future targets and the amount of work required in terms of retrofitting the property using energy efficient.

Measures could vary significantly. So people are aware of this. Schemes are in place, particularly in the private sector. Sorry, in the public sector, but it’s going to affect all of us at some point in time. RICs have looked at whole carbon assessments of properties, which there’s a second version of that.

So that’s the whole of a built environment to look at how carbon is consumed during small to large scale infrastructure projects. The residential sector also consumes carbon during construction, but it’s what we can do with our existing housing stock moving forward. So in our sector, and hopefully the members are aware, we’ve produced a retrofit standard that becomes effective in October of this year.

And the idea is that surveyors have got a real opportunity to play their part in this journey to provide advice to customers, homeowners in situ at the moment. about how they can take their existing property and move it into a more energy efficient setting. So again, I like to use examples. You can probably tell, my mom has owned property since the 1980s.

It’s got a limited amount of insulation probably got an energy performance certificate of a D, but she wants to make it carbon neutral. Let’s just say she’s inherited some money and she’s, she really wants to get the property up to speed. She needs advice. This is, I think, where our members can fit in to that journey to provide advice on the existing property, on the, potentially on the energy efficient measures that would fit with her property, but then also at the end of the journey, how have they performed?

So the way I see it, it’s secular that we look at the property. Will the energy efficient measures compromise that particular property? Yes or no. They get installed, they get reviewed. We learn, we iterate. I think We talked about the advancement of technology in the last session. I think that’s definitely going to be a part in the retrofit world, and it’s really important that our members look to upskill if they’re not already, but can actually provide advice in part of that.

Journey. So the retrofit standard is an enabler for people to start to change their mindset around property and assessing property and what’s going to be required in the future. 

Matt Nally: Definitely. Is it, imagine it’s quite a big opportunity. I think you mentioned I don’t know if it was off the call or just now, but around sort of 29 million properties that they’re affected.

So it’s quite a big opportunity for surveys to get involved in potentially. Did you. I don’t know if you’ve heard much from in terms of the residential side, consumer interest. Are there schemes available to help people do this or are they required to self fund it? Because obviously I imagine that would then quite heavily impact how many people go ahead of.

I think 

Steve Lees: ESG. He’s on it on everybody’s lips in definitely in the corporate world. Everything we do is now underlined by the green agenda, and there are various schemes and government funded schemes. So people that. Potentially aren’t able to pay can still be involved with that journey that there’s lots of information online without calling out individual bodies.

But the Energy Savings Trust is a really good starting point that then signpost people to what they practically can do. So I think people’s ethically people are looking at things slightly differently. I think there’s a debate about if it’s already started around Do energy efficient measures and the reduced cost of wholesale energy prices, is that starting to play out in terms of what people are prepared to pay for properties and property values?

Could it, could there be a delineation between a poorly performing property to something that’s, zero or net cost to produce or actually contributes back to the grid. These aren’t new, but it’s becoming absolutely more real every day. And as I say, the targets to get to, as you quite rightly pointed out, I’ve heard reports of around 29 million properties need to be inspected, improved.

Upgraded when you work out how many properties need to be done per year. I think ballpark 600, 000 homes need to be upgraded starting now to meet these targets. So yeah, it’s either going to be a carrot or a stick or a combination of both, but I think it’s definitely going to rise in terms of people’s considerations when buying and selling properties.

Matt Nally: Definitely. I suppose one thing around this then is in order to get involved in This side of the the market in terms of advice to consumers as a surveyor. You’re going to have to build up the, the knowledge and competency, et cetera to be able to advise on this there I suppose training and CPD options available to, to help you start moving into this area.

Yeah, 

Steve Lees: there is. RIS is producing various CPD, which are due later on this year before the standard. becomes effective. So our own retrofit stance. We got retrofit courses around building knowledge and practical application. There are also organizations such as Trustmark that provide structured courses and a qualification which allows surveyors or non surveyors or people in the built environment to be able to undertake government funded works.

There’s a scheme past schemes that are available that need people to be suitably qualified. But again, if there’s a shrinking mortgage market, or people have got particular specialisms. I definitely recommend that they start to look at this. This is potentially unethical, but also a new business opportunity for many people.

Our members have got a really good sound knowledge of building pathology and how buildings perform. But again, as we mentioned earlier, it’s understanding the new technology, understanding the consequences of introducing this technology, but definitely a really good opportunity for through. All of us to play a part in the sort of retrofit journey.

Interesting. 

Matt Nally: I’ve got it’s a question that to be fair, we didn’t discuss beforehand. So it might not be something that you can answer. But it popped into my head and I suppose one of the, it’s an opportunity. Absolutely. And obviously with opportunities, potentially come risks. So yeah, it’s a very good point that you made, which is actually as valuation work potentially is dropping in terms of mortgage valuations.

Actually, this is a new opportunity that opens up to counteract that and make, get balanced again, I suppose on the flip side, With different new materials that come out, we don’t necessarily know long term impacts and one of the insulation materials that have come up recently and in review has been spray foam and it’s had different opinions as to whether it’s a good thing and mortgageable or un mortgageable, is there a risk where we’re advising on new materials that could be appropriate to fit and we don’t necessarily know You know how that affects the ventilation and condensation and various different bits in the building that could open up claims later Or is it?

Except that the device is based on knowledge at the time 

Steve Lees: and yeah, it is based on knowledge at the time and also the agreements, certificates for products and understanding the products that are out there in the products of the future. And this is why the retrofit standard that we’ve produced goes into quite a lot of detail around competency and understanding.

I think you’ve made a really relevant point that just because you understand building pathology now, you really need to understand the performance in the future. Structured and tailored CPD because our members may play a part throughout the retrofit journey. So that might be, they do the initial assessment, they might be providing advice, might be liaising with the coordinator through the retrofit journey.

But yeah, I think the clear message is we do need to upskill. If you’re going into this work, you can’t just assume that your current skills and education aren’t there yet. There’s a considerable amount of CPD training, understanding products, understanding the consequence of the products, understanding cold bridging and ventilation rates.

As you quite say, we need to build confidence in the market that by doing this work, it’s not going to have an adverse effect on our property. When everything, when anything’s new, there’s always a degree of skepticism, but we’ve got to work collaboratively, not just surveyors, the whole board, Built in environment to make sure this is a really smooth process with a consumer at heart as well.

Matt Nally: Yeah, it wasn’t. Yeah, that makes complete sense. And yeah, provided you go and do The, the training and get your knowledge up, then the advice you’re giving at the time is correct based on current knowledge. Yeah, 

Steve Lees: we shouldn’t discourage people from doing it. It’s an inevitability that people will want to do or may have to do in the future, but it’s ensuring that there’s the right skills and expertise that go around that.

So working with. The people that provide the energy efficient products with our members, with other areas of the built environment. This is a real collective to make sure that this happens and happens efficiently and mitigates risk. That there’ll always be issues where things go wrong or things are incorrectly installed, but again, we need to learn and iterate and keep pushing this agenda forward.

Matt Nally: Awesome. Okay, so my final question, I think for this topic is. If we think back to topic one, where we discussed the home service standards that I believe there’s obviously an aspect of talking about climate and energy and stuff like that in the report it with retrofit, obviously this is something that relates to the energy aspect of a property.

Is this something that should already be included in reports or might potentially be included in future? 

Steve Lees: Yeah, it’s a really good point, Matt. So the current standard has got a section on energy matters, and I’m going to read this a little bit verbatim, if that’s okay, but it says at all levels of the.

RICS members and regulated firms must be able to identify and advise on defects and deficiencies caused by inappropriate energy efficiency measures implemented at the property. So going back to the section one, this was the real starting point. Now there’s further. Conversation and detail within the home survey standard, but it’s one of the agenda items for us to review.

And I’d imagine that customer questionnaire will play into this as well. You know what? What does the consumer need within surveys of the future? Are our members providing appropriate advice? I think At the moment, I don’t want to preempt the review, but I’d imagine it’d be very topical. And we have got some subject matter experts as well on the working group that are going to try not try, they will link the home survey standard of the future to other documentation with a view on everything green that underpins our working life.

So yeah, one that’s subject to review, but one that’s very much on the radar. 

Matt Nally: Interesting. Yeah. I think you’re right. It could be an opportunity to either. Have that as an additional, much more detailed product afterwards. If someone wants to know about that, but at least something that you can include in your reports to make them more beneficial to consumers, at least, at the moment until yeah, progress more with it, I think.

Overall, yeah, really interesting episode, at least for me. I enjoyed going through it. So thank you for coming on today. If anyone wants to get in touch just about. General queries around home standards and bits and pieces. Is there a best contact sort of personal place to go to? Yeah, 

Steve Lees: I’m more than happy to give my email address out, Matt.

Again, reiterate, if you didn’t listen to the first section, which I would encourage you to do, we are going to be putting a questionnaire out to all of our members in the residential sector. So that’s a really good structured way to provide comments on the current standards. My personal email address is S Lee’s that’s L double e [email protected].

There are, the RIS website has also got other contact points for anything RIS related. But yeah, happy to share my email and hopefully I can help any of our members or anybody listening to your podcast. 

Matt Nally: Definitely. Good luck with the review and then hopefully we can catch up in a year or so and see what the outcome was and that’d be really good.

Yeah, where we move from there. Thank you, Matt. Appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on.