Episode 29 – Part 3 – The importance of sustainability in surveying with Hilary Grayson, Sava

The following transcript is autogenerated so may contain errors.

Matt Nally  

In our final part of this episode, we’re looking at sustainability and surveying this big part of what sort of we’re doing at the moment in terms of research, I think you mentioned earlier, but it’s also a theme we’re having throughout this sort of series of the podcasts, it seems there’s a lot of focus at the moment on sustainability. And we’re becoming a lot more aware of I think we’ve just had it announced and you’ll be able to work out we’ve recorded this, we’ve just had it announced that it was the hottest September ever by quite a margin. Well, I suppose what you’re seeing first in terms of the changes in weight, the way that sustainability been looked at, and what sort of are doing around that at the moment. What

Hilary Grayson

is really that’s really interesting, we’ve always so so our diploma maps against the our ICS pathway for residential survey evaluation. But when we created it eight years ago, the pathway didn’t include anything around sustainability. And but because of history as a, as a business, we introduced something we called sort of like an energy module. And basically what that meant was, as part of the learning you were we trade, we will train you to be able to provide interpretation and advice based on around an EPC. So if the EPC said, Put PB on your roof, then very, very straightforward, it was kind of like, well, you can, but before you put the PV panels on the roof, you need to consider the roof covering, or you need to strengthen the timbers, or you’re in the listed two building and therefore is not going to, you know, all of that good stuff. So we’d always had that in from the very beginning. And when we did when we introduced it, I had quite a few people raise an eyebrow and go, Why have you got that in Hillary? And, and I gave up, I gave it I have be honest with you, I can remember giving up justifying it and just kind of going because we are because I say so kind of thing and being a little bit, you know, dictatorial. And the world has kind of caught up with us a bit. So we’ve we recently strengthened that element of what we do, we have much, much more now on the sort of the broader concepts around sustainability and why it matters. And we have really lucky to work with Kate Cherington and Tim Kenny, who delivered those that are both passionate surveyors, competent surveyors in Kate comes from a valuation background, Tim is more of a building surveyor, but both very, very passionate about sustainability. And so we’ve really, really strengthened that side and that element of the training. And yeah, and in a way the rest of the world has kind of caught up with us. And, you know, to the best of my knowledge, we’ll be the first to do anything like this as part of the core kind of core competence. And now, it’s a now it’s an RSS part of the RSS competencies, but it wasn’t when we started. And I think it’s, and again, even even that has changing, you know, it was about four, maybe five years ago, the Bank of England put a requirement on, as I understand it through it, it’s it requires that lenders lending industry demonstrates resilience against climate change. And the first one of the first lender to really embrace that has been nationwide. And nationwide requiring its valuers to consider the EPC as part of the valuation process. So it’s beginning it’s beginning to, to kind of filter through, and it’s really interesting, there’s been a lot there’s been a rush over the last year 18 months of surveyors sort of getting themselves qualified as domestic energy assessors, not because they’re gonna be offering EPCs. But because they need the competence to be able to properly evaluate an EPC and make an observation on an EPC. And you can’t you can’t do that unless you understand how an EPC is created. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s not going to go away. You’re absolutely right. You know, we had last year we had 40 degrees or whatever it was here in Milton Keynes in July. This year, we had a hot June, but the whole year, I mean, well, we’ve had a rotten summer, you know, Europe has been absolutely cooking. You know, and they’ve been wildfires. It’s it is it is, it’s, it’s a fact of life, and it’s going to it’s not going to get better. And we are going to have to really start addressing the way that we live in houses and the way that we occupy our houses. And I, I have to say I watched some new builds going up quite recently here in Milton Keynes. And I was just appalled at the fact that not one of them has had any renewable technologies incorporated into it was a small builder, it wasn’t a major house builder. To my mind, they should have known better, those new, you know, I find it gobsmacking that we are we’re still building modern house new houses today that don’t have renewable technologies incorporated into them. And typically, it’s just appalling. Because we’ve got to change it, we can’t and we can’t knock everything down. You know, my house is a Victorian house has got loads of embedded carbon into it. There’s not a lot that can do with it. But but, you know, I’ve got I’ve got and I will be a bit besotted with my house at the moment and repairs that are going on. But next year, it’ll be PV on the roof and I’m looking at battery because that’s a way that I can make a difference.

Matt Nally

Yes, that’s a good point because knocking things down and building new it’s probably going to be a higher carbon impact and sort of the variable impact of the existing house. Yeah, I suppose. Just in terms of other episodes, we spoke to Kate actually on a first episode of this series, which will be coming out, so that’s another one. Interesting ones. But yeah, stainability she Yeah,

Hilary Grayson

she’s very passionate about it. She’s Yeah. Yeah. And rightly so. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Matt Nally

I think it’s an interesting one that you say around the new builds as well, because one of the other episodes that’s that’s coming out on this season is around improving a couple of things, I suppose. One is biodiversity and housing one is around. Well, being in housing and discussing about the fact there’s nothing built into a lot of new builds, like say, either around sustainability aspects of PV panels or solar, whatever. And even things like bird boxes or Yeah, the bricks and yeah,

Hilary Grayson

it’s not, you know, it’s not difficult to do you know, absolutely. Like you say, you can get B bricks, you can get swift here in Wolverton, there’s been a big push to sell Swift, bricks, Martins and Swift’s because they, their their populations are really plummeted. And you can easily just, like be brick, it’s just the concept of just don’t put an ordinary brick and put a swift brick in, you know, it’s not difficult to do. And, yeah, yeah, it’s some it this stuff isn’t rocket science. But we’ve just got to sort of, you know, you’ve got to think differently, you’ve got to be able to go to Wix or wherever you buy a building materials from, and you’ve got to be able to buy, you know, 200 standard bricks, and you’ve also got to be able to easily buy a swift brick or a B brick or whatever it may be, or bat boxes. Yeah, yeah, we need to be much more so kind of imaginative. And it’s the whole sort of supply chain.

Matt Nally

Yeah, and I agree with that. If you’re someone that’s that’s sort of, I suppose, starting to realise that you need to be commenting more about or not just commenting more about the environmental aspects within a report, but actually learning enough about it to be able to do so where do people work into their start learning about that, other than just sort of googling their courses, they can look up around the sustainability aspects.

Hilary Grayson

So yeah, sustainability? Well, we, we, we’ve got some sort of small CPD modules around sustainability that are part of our, which, you know, extracted from our diploma, and they’re available for people to access. But you’re right, I think it’s, you know, it’s an it but it doesn’t have to be rocket science, it’s thinking it’s, it’s thinking about things, little simple things like gutters, for example. So all surveyors are used to looking at gutters and making an observation that the gutters are sagging, or the brackets are broken, whatever it may be. But actually, if if we are, as we address climate change, we’re going to have more extreme weather events. So actually, should you not be just sort of saying in the event of more frequent rainstorms, for example, are the gutters big enough? You know, or actually, should we be saying to customers, when you repair your guttering, make sure you replace it with with with a with a bigger data, so that it’s it’s more able to wick the water away from the property? You know, some of this stuff is not. It’s not rocket science. You know, it’s and I think, actually, I think that’s quite important. If you understand how an EPC is created, then, and then EPC won’t talk about veteran for example. But if you understand how an EPC is just generated, at least that will then at least give you the ability to sort of note some key sort of key things that can make some significant changes. It amazes me for example, that that surveyors tend not to comment on a radiator or comment on a boiler. So but it’s easy to work out the age of a boiler. And you’ll know that if a boiler isn’t over well, if you if you know the model maker boiler, you can get information on its efficiency. But if you know if even if you know the age of a boiler, if you know it was installed 810 years ago, you know that it’s not going to be running as efficiently as a modern boiler. Even if that modern boiler is the same a rating as the old boiler, you know, so and radiators, just you can look at a radiator in hard water area. And if it’s an old radiator, with old controls, you can make a pretty good assessment of the fact that those radiators are probably not going to be working particularly efficiently, in which case you’re going to be chunking out you’re going to be burning, burning the gas in the boiler and it’s not just not going to be getting around the system. You know, and I think I think surveyors could begin to make those sorts of observations that would begin to make a difference. I you know, I I can tell you switching out radiators in my house from old, you know, not that old when I moved in, I knew that they needed replacing switching them out to modern radiators. I’m not using any more gas, not changed the boiler, but I’m making a making a making place more comfortable. And therefore by definition, I’m actually you know, I’m not, I’m not gonna be hitting on for as long. So it’s little in a little things like that sort of beginning to make some observations about how, how can you know, how can I? How can I change? I don’t know how many surveyors are making commentary on suitability of properties for evey charge points, for example, you know, I live in a terraced house, my house isn’t suitable for an Eevee charge point. But there’s one just around the corner outside the coop, you know, does what a surveyor make that comment on? That accessibility? If they were spraying my house at the moment? I don’t know should they discuss? That’s a good question.

Matt Nally

I suppose I suppose if you’re, if you’re a bit more cynical about all of this and sort of thinking, my job is to go and comment on the the size of the property as it is now? Do you need to then be talking about the environmental aspects that, you know, potentially, when you replace the cutters, it’d be good to have bigger ones? Or, you know, the V aspects? Is it? Or is it a requirement that people see more come in that they’re gonna have to do? Well, the

Hilary Grayson

home survey standard, which is the ICS had kind of guidance for this, it does, it does require surveyors to sort of kind of consider sustainability and be able to comment on the EPC. But I was talking to Larry recently this morning, and I think it’s going to be reviewed again next year. And, you know, people like Kate Cherington, and Tim Kenney have got anything to do with it, then, yeah, you know, and, in fact, you know, it’s one of those things. And I think the lenders are driving it too, I think the lenders will really drive this, once they’ve got their heads around quite how, how they can make an impact, you know, if you, if they’re lending on a property for 2530 years, they, they it’s in their interests to make sure that that property has has is still attractive and attractive purchase in 2530 years. So they are really going to want they’re going to really start driving surveyors to think about how, how sustainable this property, you know, in 25 years time, is this still going to be an attractive purchase? Now? It’s, yeah, you could argue to the cows come home about how difficult that is, and crystal balls and all of that. But, you know, on the basis of what we do know, and on the basis of of, of, of the changes that have happened over the last 10 years or so, it’s not beyond I think the wit of man, to sort of start saying, okay, you know, it’s likely Victorian properties in an urban area with a gas boiler. is, you know, is that is this property going to be suitable for air source heat pumps, yes or no? And if not, why not? And if yes, you know, just make beginning to make reference to some of those new technologies, even if even if the individual has got no intention of putting those technologies in at all.

Matt Nally

I think the other thing I always think is very interesting, actually, around this is looking at newer, maybe not technologies, but materials that are available, is which one, which ones are going to be suitable in 20 years time, and which ones are going to become the new, you know, asbestos, for example, or aerated concrete, where suddenly actually what you thought was going to be a good suggestion ends up not being as profitable as VSF challenge and something we won’t know, until it comes up. I think one of the things I saw you talk about recently on LinkedIn was around sort of the quality of housing stock and how that impacts the well being of people. And I think that probably ties in with the Energy Efficiency aspects. What are you? What are you seeing, I suppose, as a last question around the key, possible key challenges around improving the quality of housing stock around energy efficiency, and so well,

Hilary Grayson

gosh, well, improving the quality of housing, I think we’ve got, we’ve got to get better at making sure our properties are properly maintained, because a damp house is a cold house. So if if nothing else, we’ve got to really understand about maintenance and recognising that properties need maintenance and when they need maintenance now, you know, I can talk I completely get how difficult this is because, you know, I’m I’m in the business, and I’m trying to find tradesmen at the moment to do some repairs on my house and it’s bloomin difficult. Let me tell you But it’s it for me, it’s kind of like bats. There’s no point sticking on retrofit insulation, if you really aren’t clear about the sort of the, the, what you’re sticking it onto and how it all kind of hangs together. I am concerned if I’m honest with you that some of these sort of retrofit schemes are potentially not. I’ve seen some I’ve seen some terrible, some terrible examples of sort of poorly and poorly installed insulation, for example. But also, you know, some of these technologies are complicated and difficult. And it’s about having controls that are understandable. And it’s about having wording that explains to a consumer about why it will feel different. So a good example is I recently going back to Westbury, I recently installed some radiant heat panels in some of the rooms at Westbury. And I’ve had complaints that it’s cold. Well, it is, it is not. So the right they don’t work by heating the air, they work by heating you and the physical things in the room. So when you walk into the room, you won’t be hit with warm air like you would if it was a central heated room, you know, you’ll be in the room, and then you’ll begin to feel the warmth and the effect of the heating. So it’s about translating that to lay people. And that’s hard work, you know, I’ve had to sort of explain to people over and over again, White doesn’t work the same way. And the heat panels that we got were installed are brilliant, what we can’t do is match up the controls to get the controls to work simply for individuals, you know, so we’ve got it’s kind of all those sort of niggly little bits of the jigsaw puzzle we’ve got to get right. And, you know, and yeah, you know, and insulation. You can’t insulate the wall of a house, if you’ve got a fence against it without taking the fence down. You know, and I’ve seen insulation cut around fencing, just not gonna work, you know, so

Matt Nally

yeah, that’s just Yeah, I’m sure there’d be many funny stories of not funny. But stories like that, that come up. I think one of the challenges, I think, over the next few years is going to be how rapidly the technology will change and the options that they come about. So it’ll be trying to keep up with what’s available, how it works. And as you say, how to how to communicate the the impacts of different options that you can, yeah,

Hilary Grayson

yeah, it’s cool. I mean, you know, the next our, you know, rat concrete, I mean, we’re not going to know about those sorts of things until they sort of kind of come and hit us. And, and, you know, yeah, it would just not, you know, and, and I think we everything, as well, as is, you know, build building safety and building control, you know, and that’s now sort of getting regulated and sort of being looked at as a response to the building safety net, which was the response to Grenfell. But that’s a good example, you know, a technology that just was not properly installed. You know, was the was was the wrong way specified technology for the wrong space, and then wasn’t properly installed with the right site with the right safety features, you know, and people died. Yeah.

Matt Nally

Yeah, the difficult one that was up. Yeah. Tragic. I remember that. And I still drive past it and see, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I think the yeah, there’s a lot of opportunity, I think, for the housing, housing. So I think there’s a lot of negative stories at the moment in terms of things going wrong and, you know, moulding houses and all these types of things, but there’s certainly a lot of opportunity, I suppose with that to start improving things. Yes.

Hilary Grayson

I mean, I think we’re sort of starting from quite a low point. I mean, it can, we can only go up the hit Well, certainly from some from some examples of certainly social housing and private landlords, etc. You do hear horror stories. You know, but I think I think I think surveyors well, and it’s interesting as, as one of the growing areas of lending, as I’ve been told, is to do with equity release and equity release, lenders do insist on condition surveys, because obviously, that, you know, the way that works is they then get the the asset at the end of the process, and they need the asset to to be in good condition. And, you know, maybe surveyors need to start thinking about providing sort of interim packages around sort of in Jim surveys, you know, if you had a customer that bought a house 10 years ago, and you did a survey for them, are they still there, if they are still there is it worth saying, you know, getting in touch with them and saying, I could do a survey for you now, that would give you some repair, you would if you were managing, if you were managing, if you’re a commercial property manager, you know, you would get schedules of works done, you’d get schedules of condition, you would have Building Surveyors come around every so often. And so to kind of give you sort of kind of a planned maintenance. programme subprogram, you know, we could be doing, we could be doing more of that in for some of our customers, a lot of people without doubt, wouldn’t pay for it. But I think a lot of people would, you know, somebody like my mum would have paid force somebody to tell her what she needed to do, just to make sure the house stayed warm and watertight, something that I would do, you don’t need to have a huge amount of education, to sort of, to, to sort of kind of buy into that sort of idea. And I’ve never seen a surveyor for that idea for everybody, or there’s Building Surveyors out there. That’s a good idea,

Matt Nally

I think, because I agree. Yeah, not everyone would go for it. But it’s just because not wanting to spend money, but I think there’ll be plenty that would, because it’s a fear of getting a contract around themselves and the wrong thing. And so they’ve they’ve got information up front, and a bit more confident with their potential route forward. Yeah. From a business perspective, it’s rather than just having looking at leads that you’ve got as a single job for them, we’ll never hear from them for another 20 years, as you can start to think achieve a lot more from your previous previous customer base. Yeah,

Hilary Grayson

I mean, I don’t know how often I don’t know how often we move house now. But moving house is such a stressful business, I think we, you know, I think we tend to stay put longer than, you know, so. So if you did a survey for somebody, and you know, that there, or you think they might still be there. And even if they have gone, if you if you write, you know, if you write to the owner, that owner might have been a might pick it up and sort of run with it. So yeah, I think it’s something that surveyors could sort of start looking at more. And, and also, you know, and if you’re also if you do EPCs, you know, you have to have any PC, if you if you move house, well, why not offering PCs as well. And then actually, alongside the PC offer a really a really sensible, sort of, sort of suggested programme of works that you could actually do, rather than just because the PC, just sort of, you know, Chuck’s out all of these recommendations will actually sell say, Well, okay, you could do these works with this product, we train on the constantly, you could do these things. And it will it, you know, and these will be the benefits for you. Yeah, I think there’s all sorts of ways some areas could be more engaged with people who are not moving house and actually staying put, you know, more of a planned maintenance and planned improvements sort of approach.

Matt Nally

Yeah, I think a lovely idea to finish on that around. Yeah, people can better engage. So thank you very much for coming on today, Henry, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, or Saffer about sort of, whether it’s a student looking at a course whether it’s looking at the other aspects, how do they get in touch,

Hilary Grayson

so they can, the best way to get in touch with us is [email protected]. And, because that’s the inbox that people are on all the time, so yeah, drop us an email to Hello at saba. And, and, yeah, and we’ll pick it up from there. But there was also our website, which is wwe.server.co.uk, which has got, it’s quite complicated, but it’s relatively easy to navigate, but you’ll see the whole myriad of what we do, and where we sort of fit into things. So yeah, that’d be great.

Matt Nally

Thanks again for coming on.